Christoph has requested a picture of the track at Pleasure Beach loop so here is one taken on 26th September 2010.
There are some Blackpool timtables in fortress library. My recollection is that the journey time from Starr Gate to Fleetwood was 58 minutes back in 1957 and was just over an hour in more recent times. Perhaps someone could confirm this - the timetables were in a box which I had numbered 103.
There are some Blackpool timtables in fortress library. My recollection is that the journey time from Starr Gate to Fleetwood was 58 minutes back in 1957 and was just over an hour in more recent times. Perhaps someone could confirm this - the timetables were in a box which I had numbered 103.
Thanks for this picture, Richard. If the marks are from 273 than I think I have a good idea why it got derailed.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to see whether the RAIB comes to the same conclusion. Hint: look at the 'alignment' of the unwelded track connection just behind the crossing (the left hand rail). Such a small kink would be no problem for larger wheels, but it can become a problem with the smaller wheels of a reversed maximum traction truck leading.
By the way, on the dreaded continent such connections are welded and smoothly ground.
looks to me like there was minimum traction here lmas
ReplyDeleteLets hope this is the end of the practice of humping veteran trams round the place to run on unfamiliar metals. Blackpool will be operating high speed modern LRV's soon and all permanent way has been designed to deal with them and not 110 year old foreign trams. After all you dont see museum trams at metrolink, supertram, tramlink etc.
ReplyDeletePerhaps not in the UK, but we certainly operate with a lot of success historic trams on modern systems such as Rotterdam, Amsterdam, The Hague and even the relative new Sneltram Utrecht-Nieuwegein.
ReplyDeleteBut then again, this is the Continent, not Britain .... Perhaps Britain is too close to Ireland? And is there a difference between a Brit and an Irish?
Leeds 6 (or Hull 96 as it was at the time) has been to Metrolink
ReplyDeleteYes 96 visited Queens Road for the 1994 Metrolink Open Day. Whilst it was there arrangements were made for reprofiling of the wheels on the wheel lathe. Is this the only UK museum tram to have been tyre turned on a modern underfloor wheel lathe?
ReplyDeleteSheffield 15 has been to Supertram
ReplyDeleteAround the time of the Blackpool celebrations the UITP held their 125 years anniversary event in Brussels. There was a great show of trams from Amsterdam, Den Haag, Rotterdam (motor+trailer), Paris, Milan, Liege and Brussels itself, all of them operating successfully over the Brussels system. Not one tram failed in service. Their age ranged from 1927 to 1952.
ReplyDeleteand only last year metrolink were looking at an idea off putting L53 out in manchester for a publicity stunt
ReplyDeleteHa,Hull 96 visiting the depot is one thing, going out on to the network is another matter. How would it have managed picking up passengers at the high level platforms, switching points etc etc? BTS's dilemma will be how to fit the new LRV's in with the veteran rattlers we all love. The only solution will be to have heritage days when the timetable goes out the window. Otherwise the 50mph LRV's will only be able to do the Starr gate-Ferry trip in the same time as Bolton 66 or Manchester 765 did it. And what a waste of £86million that would be!
ReplyDeletenot forgeting that l53 nearly went on metrolink last year but for timing
ReplyDeleteI should perhaps remind anonymous that Blackpool's tramway has the longest pedestrianised area in the world, Cabin to Abercorn Place except behind the Metropole. Thoughout this length speed restrictions apply driven by interface with the increasingly less observant and responsible pedestrians. The new system will retain this feature and problem No one seriously could accept fencing off the Promenade area from the Town so these speed restrictions will apply to all cars on this length. This will greatly assist scheduling mixed operation. It's not rocket science just simple observation with a mark one human eye.
ReplyDeleteAmsterdam and Rotterdam have similar situations, yet they operate at better speeds than Blackpool, which resembles more the Douglas horse tram than a modern tram anno 2010.
ReplyDeleteIndeed, if trams have to operate like Blackpool, investing in new trams is a waist of money, because the parallel buses are at least twice as quick! A small fence in the form of low hedges doesn't intrude on the promenade, yet improves tram safety.
The alternative is converting the tramway into a proper reservation, which still leaves plenty of room for the pedestrians.
By 'eck Alan lad, I hope BTS are using more than human eye to work out the tram timetable. Surely some techie there has a wizzy computer model to do it for them. They should put 12 foot high chicken wire fencing either side of the permanent way at peak holiday times to stop drunken idiots weaving about on the tracks along the golden mile. That way all cars including the LRV's could get up a decent speed. Problem is, come the illuminations, I wouldn't want to go hurtling past them at 50 mph;just hope the controllers fitted to the new cars have notches marked "illuminations" and "drunks"
ReplyDeleteIn Holland the regulated speed for trams in pedestrian areas is 15 km/h (9 mph). However, if a clear boundery exists between the tramway reservation and the normal roadway, the speed limit is 50 km/h (31 mph). A low hedge has worked out to be more than sufficient to separate trams from pederstrians. Nobody wants a Berlin Wall along the promenade.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Blackpool and HMRI should visit Amsterdam and Rotterdam (and other places in Europe) to see how a modern tramsystem can be incorporated in delicate places such as pedestrian areas.
The other thing is that a modern tram has far better braking qualities than the present fleet in Blackpool. Also its front design can be much more collision friendly, increasing the survivability of an accident.
BTS have an impossible task. How to please 1) the local travelling public who pay council taxes there, 2) holidaymakers who use the tramway to sightsee (and most couldn't give a hoot what tram they're riding) and 3) tramway geeks (me included) who want to see any and every museum tram known to man rattle up and down the prom. If I were BTS I'd please folk in that very order, us geeks coming last. Blackpool ain't Crich-on-Sea. If I were a local and was being told after an £86M spend "Oh by the way the journey from Starr Gate to Fleetwood will take as long as ever it did" I'd be fuming and I'd go get on the no1 bus then I'd tell my local councillors to rip the whole tramway up and rebuild it somewhere else!
ReplyDeleteIt strikes me that like most forums this one is populated by very self opinionated posters who's prejudices are given full reign when they post.
ReplyDeleteBlackpool is not Amsterdam, or Sheffield, or Croydon. It is a town that makes its living from tourism during the summer months and its tramway is as well known as any in the world, albeit that it is schizophrenic in its uses between November and April, and May and October.
Can you imagine replacing San Francisco's cable cars with something from Bombardier?? There would be a riot - and rightly so!
So why replace most of what runs on the Pleasure Beach to Bispham section with something that you could see in any city anywhere in the world, and with no relevance to Blackpool, its holidaymakers or its heritage??
The articulateds may have a role as interurban cars on a semi fast commuter system. But Ferry to Bispham and Starr Gate to Pleasure Beach do not fill that bill either.
Also with their modern characteristics of computerised control and sensitive electronics it remains to be seen how well the new depot and trams stand up to prolonged blasting by wind blown salt and sand which can have an amazing penetrative and abrasive effect.
We shall know in a few years, but in the meantime I trust that the Fylde's resort managers will be making their feelings known that holidaymakers are not commuters, and that maintaining the quality of a resort does not mean throwing away its heritage or altering beyond all redemption
The great Walter Luff managed BCT in the 1930's. Were it not for his vision and foresight we would not be having this debate, because Blackpool's system would have disappeared probably even before the start of WW2. If he were managing BTS now, what direction would he be taking the seafront tramway? Also, unless I am mistaken, BCT's motto was and as far as I know still is "Progress". To compare Blackpool to SF Muni or the cable cars (neither of which share metals with BART)is a reductio ad absurdum if ever there was one.
ReplyDeleteNo6 you seem to have turned into one of those self opinionated posters that you were criticising!
ReplyDeleteThat was not a criticism - more an observation.
ReplyDeleteAs for anonymous' comment - You cannot compare the needs of Blackpool with a commuter Metro such as Metrolink, Nottingham or West Midlands.
The Blackpool system is part and parcel of the leisure "offer" that is the whole resort. start pulling the legs off that function, one by one, and the whole edifice crashes - if it hasn't already.
There is manifest room for modernisation - but wholesale destruction??? - no-one wins!
According to Rail News, the 16 new LRV's will maintain a 10 min headway between Starr Gate and the Ferry in a journey time of 51 mins compared to 66 now. 16 Balloons will alternate between the LRV's to cover Pleasure Beach and Cleveleys. Heritage trams will operate only on nominated days, whatever that means. So the argument will no doubt turn to which trams outside of the Balloons will survive. Is this the end for the 2 Jubilee deckers and the Centenaries?
ReplyDeleteActually, 10 Balloons are going to be kept to provide the Cleveleys service, not 16. The Heritage fleet has already been decided - 2 Boats, 3 Illuminated cars, 66, 660, 143, 147, 717, 706. Next year will see the end of not only the jubilees and centenaries but also the twin sets and brush cars - most of which have already been sold
ReplyDeleteI think Blackpool "died" the day the son of a Scottish presbyterian minister then resident in #10 pulled the plug on all the planned casinos. So much for creating the Las Vegas of the North. What's needed now in Blackpool is regeneration and real jobs 12 months of the year for the folk who live in Fylde region. A modern transit system is a vital part of the exercise. Ask any East Mancunian. While it will be nice to have a few of Walter Luff's trams to remind us of the glory days of the Blackpool system, you can't build the town's future on them.
ReplyDeleteYes, and this has been known for a long time now.
ReplyDeleteWill people pull their heads out their arses, research information first and can we PLEASE put this to bed now, it's getting ridiculous!
Oh... can I point out OMO8's interior too...?
The problem with the Blackpool tram system is....it's in Blackpool. Well for now at any rate. In a year or two's time, most of it won't be. And as for things known for a long time, there seems little point in producing an article on Blackpool 125 2 months after the event.
ReplyDelete