Lots of track and overhead has been replaced and new stops are being constructed.
Liverpool 762 at Bispham.
We spent three nights in Blackpool accompanied by a German friend. He thought that it had been a wonderful experience partly because the conditions had been so good for photography and that double deck trams are a novelty for him.
I agree that it was a unique experience but I was disappointeded not to see a single Crich based tram in service. I think that the TMS let down the event organisers and the hundreds of enthusiasts who had travelled from all over Europe for the event. As a long-standing member, I offer them my apologies coupled with the hope that the Tramway Museum Society governing body will issue a formal explanation for this failure. A more forlorn hope is that the governing body and officers of the Society realise that they are not always right and are less arrogant in the future.
Dream on!
I agree that it was a unique experience but I was disappointeded not to see a single Crich based tram in service. I think that the TMS let down the event organisers and the hundreds of enthusiasts who had travelled from all over Europe for the event. As a long-standing member, I offer them my apologies coupled with the hope that the Tramway Museum Society governing body will issue a formal explanation for this failure. A more forlorn hope is that the governing body and officers of the Society realise that they are not always right and are less arrogant in the future.
Dream on!
Having attended a lot of the events, I heard a lot of enthusiasts commenting on the TMS and the fact that their three cars were the most unreliable of all the visiting trams. The 125 events have not shown the TMS in a good light and questions were being asked about their standards of maintenance, when cars like 762, 765 and 66 perfomed pretty much faultlessly
ReplyDeleteMy perception of the limited appearance of TMS cars is different.
ReplyDeleteB&F 2: Don't know what went wrong with it, but given the fact that it is the oldest of the cars with the most delicate equipment it did not do too bad, I think.
167: To my knowledge recently overhauled and without much of a chance to run it in properly to iron out any problems.
273: To my knowledge the tram was okay, but it would appear it was not fully compatible with Blackpool track. Don't know the details, but have seen the scratches and the track where it came off and have drawn my, laymans, conclusions.
In contrast Liverpool 762 and 765 would appear to be well run in cars with more robust equipment.
And if necessary, the LTT deserves even more bashing: 143 not ready, 279 not ready, 8 only just for the procession, 715 not repainted.
As ever so often, not an ideal situation, but far from the desaster some people make out of it. Neither black nor white, but somewhere in between.
has the above person put these comments on this site from facts about the tms trams at blackpool? or is it just another tunnel visioned snipe by someone who thinks they know the facts!
ReplyDeleteFact - The only trams to break down with regularity belonged to the TMS
ReplyDeleteFact - Rack 2 broke down at least four times - causing disruption and chaos (including to me who was delayed on an important journey by an hour as all service trams were held up)
Fact - All other societies trams ran well
Fact - Of the eventual seven trams which were offered to Blackpool, none made it into regular service
Fact - 167 caused mass disruption at Bispham on its one and only passenger journey
Fact - Rack may be the oldest tram, but Marton 31 isnt far behind and it ran well
A LOT of enthusaists are sniping at Crich over this fiasco
And just who is Lord Haw Haw (Anonymous) to claim that he knows the facts? He didn't make his hands dirty in the Crich workshop, which was overloaded!
ReplyDeleteWe must face the facts that the Crich fleet is rapidly showing its age. Increasingly, the Crich trams suffer from axle failure, a typical problem with old trams. Motor bearings are getting life expired as well, again something to be expected after so many years, yet unpredictable.
Many continental trams received new equipment after the war, such as Amsterdam 474 in Carlton Colville. Most British trams preserved at Crich still have their pre-war equipment.
I have seen 273 running in Blackpool minutes before it derailed. It has reversed maximum traction trucks, which makes it more track sensitive. It could very well be that there is nothing wrong with the car, just the permanent way not being fully compatible.
Again, this happens. Not only in Blackpool but also in Utrecht, where we struggled to match a worn out PW to second hand trams from Vienna.
I think that the amount of criticism from 'armchair' experts is very unfair. A lot of effort has been put in by many pepole to try to make up a memorable event. Yes I probably am an 'armchair critic' myself, but one with a sense of reality I like to think.
ReplyDeleteThe problems with Crich cars may well have occurred during service at Crich but not been so obvious. 167 had been suffering bearing problems and had been given attention for that problem. If the car had been returned to service at Crich it is quite likely a similar failure would have occurred. The TMS would not have sent it had they believed there was a chance of further failure. Bearing failures are not uncommon. I am not familiar with 273 really but cars with maximum traction trucks need careful adjustment of weight distribution to avoid tendency to derail on sharp curves. Manchester 765 was prone to this when it first operated at Crich but nobody criticised the workshop team then. B&F 2 I believe did take part in the procession but was not allowed to operate in normal service for the sensible reason of crew safety, the operating environment at Blackpool os much different to Crich. As for the criticism of the LTT they tried to provide cars to fill te gaps in the history but some of the problems appear to have been linked to works capacity at Rigby Road which is not a cristicism but a fact of life. They have a commercial system to maintain and the everyday service must come first. Come on be grateful for waht did take place and congratulate those that worked hard to achieve it.
i would just like to point out that the comment about the facts is about the first posting on these comments and not at christoph when i posted my comment there was nothing by christoph and i agree with his comments ,to many people seem to quick at finding faults without knowing all the facts in the first place, or are they as i said before just there to have a go at someone.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I have a longer reply which I put onto the forum: http://www.iphpbb.com/board/ftopic-18483519nx108523-87.html
ReplyDeletePlease ignore the advert for the time being and feel free to reply there. There is no need to register and anonymous/pseudonym contributions are welcome.
The tragic thing is that a similar event was running in Brussels. The Dutch tramway museums send four trams to Brussels (Amsterdam three axle car 533, The Hague PCC 1024, both from the Amsterdam museum and Rotterdam motor plus trailer 515 + 1001 from Rotterdam. The performed excellently. The reason? 533 and 1024 are post war cars with resilient control equipment en relative new axles, wheels, motors and so on. 533 operates regularly in Amsterdam itself both on the museum line and on the city network, just as 1024.
ReplyDeleteThe Rotterdam cars are part of the RET historic fleet and from the backbone of the tourist tram operation during the summer. They are in daily operation, i.e. well run in.
The Crich cars are much older, some of them not run in when they were send to Blackpool. In fact, this event proves that it is no longer sensible to send Crich cars away. They are becoming too fragile.
By the way: how often do fully restored steam loco's fail on the mainline? Dreadfully often! Look at Tornado with its brand new German boiler, which failed after barely two years in operation.
Our trams are priceless antiques, not toys for overgrown boys! We shouldn't have sent them to Blackpool in the first place they are just too precious.
ReplyDeleteIn response to 'Grrrr' - does the same apply to the equally valuable historic trams from Beamish, Heaton Park & Birkenhead, all of which ran in Blackpool a lot more successfully than the TMS cars did? The Crich fleet are no more special than other preserved trams elsewhere and I think its absurd to suggest that they need extra protection. In any case, plenty of defects occur at Crich - does that mean that the 'priceless antiques' should not run full stop? I dare say if all historic trams were treated thus, a lot of enthusiasts would lose interest completely and then where would we be!?
ReplyDeleteYes all the trams should be wrapped in cotton wool ans stored in a sealed climate control environment away from people so that no damage can ever come to them.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that no one will ever be able to see them, ride on them and appreciate them is immaterial.
at Andrew
ReplyDeleteI have the answer to your question 'if all historic trams were treated thus, a lot of enthusiasts would lose interest completely and then where would we be!?'
Answer: A lot better off!
A lot better off without enthusiasts!! Hmmm, pretty much sums up the attitude of certain people at Crich! Maybe that explains why, at the 'Blackpool' event in August there was plenty of donkey rides, sandcastle building etc and no effort to extract any of the stored Blackpool cars for display. Families = money - fair enough but why neglect the enthuasist? Had 712, 4 and 49 been on display I would have attended the event. As it was, I left the donkey riding fraternity to it and rode on trams in Blackpool instead.
ReplyDeleteSo Crich would be 'a lot better off' without enthusiasts? Good grief, I've read some strange things on this blog but that one takes the biscuit! OK, no enthusiasts at Crich, so let's consider the following points:
ReplyDelete*Who will crew the trams and operate the museum? I doubt Joe Bloggs and family will want to volunteer, after all they only come for a fun day out.
*Who will fund tram restorations and the development of the museum? Again, the people who come for the woodland walk and donkey rides aren't going to raise £250k or whatever is being quoted to restore a tram these days. Without enthusiasts to fund restorations and overhauls you'd ultimately end up with a static museum that the public would find boring, hence visitor numbers will dry up and Crich will die!
*As has been said before, enthusiasts often spend big bucks on models, books etc. in the gift shop so even if they get free admission they still help to fund the museum in other ways.
*Indeed, without enthusiasts Crich wouldn't even exist as it was the enthusiast community who built the place from nothing without outside help. Now, it seems that it is a small group of pompous individuals who are killing it off by scaring off anyone who dares to criticise the TMS, or whose face doesn't fit the bill.
Frankly attitudes like this towards enthusiasts are becoming far too common, and the lack of interest in catering for the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money, volunteering etc. is frankly disgusting. At this rate soon I'll stop visiting Crich altogether, which I suppose would be great news for some. I can have much more fun at Heaton Park or Beamish where enthusiasts are welcomed with open arms - heck, even Blackpool are more welcoming and that is ultimately a public transport system!
@ Andrew
ReplyDelete"Who will crew the trams and operate the museum? I doubt Joe Bloggs and family will want to volunteer, after all they only come for a fun day out."
Now let me think......how do Beamish or the Black Country Museum or Blists Hill operate? Hang on...they use paid staff. Crich is unusual in museum circles in using so many volunteers.
"Who will fund tram restorations and the development of the museum? Again, the people who come for the woodland walk and donkey rides aren't going to raise £250k or whatever is being quoted to restore a tram these days. Without enthusiasts to fund restorations and overhauls you'd ultimately end up with a static museum that the public would find boring, hence visitor numbers will dry up and Crich will die!"
Really - so how is it that the NRM hasn't died? It's a static museum, and yet it's the most visited museum outside London......
"As has been said before, enthusiasts often spend big bucks on models, books etc. in the gift shop so even if they get free admission they still help to fund the museum in other ways."
Really - and precisely how much do you think the Museum makes on these models, books etc? Answer - precious little.
"Indeed, without enthusiasts Crich wouldn't even exist as it was the enthusiast community who built the place from nothing without outside help. Now, it seems that it is a small group of pompous individuals who are killing it off by scaring off anyone who dares to criticise the TMS, or whose face doesn't fit the bill.
Frankly attitudes like this towards enthusiasts are becoming far too common, and the lack of interest in catering for the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money, volunteering etc. is frankly disgusting. At this rate soon I'll stop visiting Crich altogether, which I suppose would be great news for some. I can have much more fun at Heaton Park or Beamish where enthusiasts are welcomed with open arms - heck, even Blackpool are more welcoming and that is ultimately a public transport system!"
Really - so how much do you contribute to the Museum by volunteering? Or do you just come, as so many do, purely to wave your camera about whilst the rest of us keep the place running? Frankly, the biggest source of trouble is from enthusiasts that want everything to run for them and are quick to criticise when something isn't done to please them. We are supposed to be a professional museum, run for the benefit of the general public, to educate and inform them about this particular aspect of their history. We are not a toybox for the enthusiast just to come and take pictures of his or her favourite tram. And furthermore, if the enthusiats are 'the very people who could keep the Museum alive by donating money', please explain why we are posting a deficit each year....
The Museum would indeed be better off without many of the 'enthusiasts' that Crich currently has - from Board level downwards. Perhaps then we could start running a professional Museum that actually does what it is supposed to do.
Putting aside the somewhat bizzare series of postings above, and returning to the original Blog post, would Richard care to detail how the TMS and it's officers have displayed 'arrogance' in relation to this project?
ReplyDeleteThe bustle and bluster seems to be created by blog sites and internet forums (which leads to some of the truly bizare stuff above) rather than the society itself.
Those within the society who are sniping, including Richard, really ought to be ashmed of the diservice they do to their fellow members and officers who I've no doubt have been trying extremely hard on their behalf.
@ Paul:
ReplyDeleteFrom your comment I gather that you would like the museum to become a static museum run by paid staff only. Is that correct?
In order to save Richard the hassle of moderating all the comments and to allow a quicker conversation, may I invite you round to the forum: tmscrich.iphpbb.com or click on my name.
Christoph
To answer some of Paul's needlessly aggressive reply to my comments:
ReplyDelete*You say that Crich is not doing well financially, so employing paid staff to do the work of volunteers as Beamish do is clearly not an option.
*Comparing Crich to the National Railway Museum is pointless. For a start there is far more interest in steam locos than there will ever be in trams and the visitor numbers reflect that. Secondly, the NRM is in a city. Thirdly, admission to the NRM is free!
*If items such as models, books etc. don't bring in money then why stock them at all? I find it hard to believe that the TMS would sell these items if it wasn't benefitting them, but am willing to be proved wrong if anyone has some figures.
*My comment about enthusiasts being essential to keeping the Museum alive still stands true. Without donations from enthusiasts who support the TSO, LCCTT etc. there would be no funds to support overhauls or new acquisitions.
*Finally, you're absolutely right in saying that I don't support the Museum. Why? Because UK tram preservation doesn't end with the TMS. I have recently supported Heaton Park and the Brighton 53 group, who need help even more than Crich as both are running on a shoestring budget yet seem to have far more ambition and drive to succeed than Crich have. When I visit Crich I always see and hear volunteers being treated like rubbish, whereas elsewhere they are treasured, as are people who donate money. I don't want to give my time and money and get a load of abuse for my efforts. Yes there are some very nice people at Crich but not enough to get me there, and anyway I like helping 'the little guys'! People need to realise that tram enthusiasts aren't obliged to support Crich, there are other preservation groups out there and they all need help, so please respect the fact that people are free to make their own choices of which deserve their support the most.
Regards,
Andrew.
When were there donkey rides at Crich? Makes you wonder how much people really know about the Museum, but take time to come on here and criticise it.
ReplyDeleteSome of this comment is getting very strange but at times expressing what some of us have always half supected could be the views of some at least of the museum's leadership. Can I now ask that if the non working member is such a liability as suggested the position is made clear and we can then with a clear concience stop paying our subscriptions? I seem to remember from the accounts that when the previous Sales Officer "Left" the profit dropped by c£10k in the first part year of his departure. Strange as this was accompanied by a policy of not stocking the expensive models and Books he had as they alledgedly were not making a sufficent profit margin. Strangely the Museum prices always seem to be "top dollar" so if we're not making much we must be buying very expensively.
ReplyDeletei hav read all of thes comments and find some people are just getting at the people who worked hard to keep these trams running for you to enjoy.
ReplyDeleteWith the blackpool event at crich in august, we could't get any of the blackpool cars out as there wasn't space on the depot yard to display them and all the vintage vehicles(we had 300 of them to display). As for the beach and other entainment we offered all the visitors that weekend went home saying how good it was.
Now to Alan Kirkman's last comment, you'r right about the shop as it doesn't offer a 10th of what my late father did and would do better if it did so now.
As for the crich cars not operating propely in blackpool, well there has been not critism on here about the LTT who did not full fill what they had offered. NO 143,279 and omo 8 only just done for the last day and not passenger use. Personally i think thats where most of the comments should be sent.
Well said Mr KIrkman.
ReplyDeleteFor Aaron and Alan in particular, having in the past supplied books (trolleybus ones at that) to the shop under the control of the late Colin Scothern, the principle was that 10 or more books of the same title could be supplied at "Trade Price", i.e. one third off the cover price. To me, that seems a reasonable profit margin. Colin was always happy to accept anything of like nature and indeed he complained when I did not bring new books with me. I do not doubt that the late Peter Johansson acted in a similar manner.
ReplyDelete"As for the crich cars not operating propely in blackpool, well there has been not critism on here about the LTT who did not full fill what they had offered. NO 143,279 and omo 8 only just done for the last day and not passenger use. Personally i think thats where most of the comments should be sent."
ReplyDeleteIsn't that a case though of trying to put the spotlight on to someone else in order to distract from the points at hand though?
Graham, I know and as an Officer of the TLRS I know our trade terms to the NTM even today of our latest publications. Hence my tongue in cheek comment.
ReplyDeletebeamish and heaton park forever lol
ReplyDelete